Thursday, May 11, 2006

Israel threatens to wipe Iran off the map

Vice Premier of Israel Shimon Peres said Monday that "the president of Iran should remember that Iran can also be wiped off the map."






Peres did not say who should act against Iran if it continues with its nuclear program, but implied military action should be led by the United States, pointing to the recent wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Israeli officials have indicated that Israel would join any international operation against Iran.

Peres's vehement expressions came the same day that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad wrote to US President George W. Bush proposing "new solutions" to their differences in the first letter from an Iranian leader to an American president in 27 years, Iranian government spokesman Gholam-Hossein Elham said Monday.

Source Jpost

There, now they have both supposedly said the same thing. Can we now cut out the word play and deal with the realities on the ground instead of the crap that comes out of peoples mouths ? ... Somehow I doubt it

73 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

shame on israel, in the name of God to threaten or wage war any longer, shame.

your blog is very powerful. thank you.

May 11, 2006 2:16 am  
Blogger Cheryl said...

I don't see why thats a threat - its the truth, isn't it? That any country putting nukes in the air would have inbound missiles to the firing position, before their's hit their target?

If one guy sends a nuke, we'll all go up in smoke, everywhere, and thats all we all need to remember.

May 11, 2006 11:55 am  
Blogger Hype said...

mutual destruction doesn't exist anymore. missle defense shield?

we have changed the game and the old treaties are not valid anymore, thanks to BushCo.

this is very serious.

-Hype

May 11, 2006 2:52 pm  
Blogger _H_ said...

cheryl the point is the words. That is all . thousands of blogs qoute every day that Iran said Israel could/should be wiped off the map and now Israel have said the same thing and less than 100 blogs seem to have noticed.

The point is one of hypocricy in what we in the west decide to put in our news programs. All nations should be judged by the same stick and they are not. That is my point .

May 11, 2006 4:22 pm  
Blogger thepoetryman said...

Only difference is Israel will do it. Iran cannot. If Israel decides to crush Iran let us see the US then intervene to stop them! Highly unlikely. It's different when Iraq tries to crush Kuwait. Then our vested interests are at stake. Israel crushing Iran...fits our own agenda like a glove!

Like you said lets start talking as in the letter sent to George from Mahmoud that pressed for peace on every page.

May 11, 2006 7:31 pm  
Blogger jonz said...

LOL. (I am really restraining from using ad-hominen attacks on _h_)

All nations should be judged by the same stick and they are not

Good lord. If only you practiced what you preached, you would be waxing lyrical about the human rights abuses that occur in the Islamic Republic of Iran, every single day.

Yet you do not. You save ALL of your wrath for Israel and America. Which are both pluralist democracies, that LEGALLY enshrine EQUALITY for ALL.

Go figure.

May 12, 2006 11:11 am  
Blogger _H_ said...

Wrong Jonz I save all my wrath for the return of balance , when did you last praise the millions of peace loving muslims on your web site ?

Israel is not a pluralist democracy. you tell me when Israel will have a non Jewish leader ? a muslim prime minister or even a catholic one ..tell me why the majority of Israelis wish to only have a country with Israelis in it. of course if anyone else behaved that way we would call them racists , but noooo we can't do that can we.

Jonz I have told you before that I view all states equally . I have told you before that this site shows the perspective that the thousands of sites do not show.

Yes it is selective for it is attempting to redress a balance . No web site from yours to the BBC and beyond is not selective in there choice of articles .

millions of sites attacked Iran for 'saying' Israel could be wiped off the map.

My tiny little corner of the world points out that Israel said it too and you have a problem with it ?

You obviously do not believe fairness for if such you would believe that both stories get equal airtime.

I am not anti Jewish , I would not even wish to enter that gutter with you . This is about balance to the other webs sites that ignore such stories .

I am sure you would be more at home with the little green fascists sorry footballs Jonz . You express no balance at all on your own site but attempt to slate me for mine

It is very boring to have to repeat comments to replies I have already made to you on other threads. Are you not able to evolve you debate ?

If your failing to take into account answers I have already given you then I can only assume you merely wish to disrupt the site.

Is that your purpose ?

May 12, 2006 3:44 pm  
Blogger jonz said...

Don't get me wrong. Although I disagree with your slant on just about everything, I appreciate that slant.

Ok so we're both biased in our ways? I focus on the Islamist threat, and you focus on the threat of the West (provoking an Islamist attack)?

May 12, 2006 4:32 pm  
Blogger Hype said...

Islamist threat? why aren't you in Iraq?

put up or shut up.

-Hype

May 12, 2006 5:05 pm  
Blogger sam polet said...

i can see a conflict here!!!
what are those words !!! islamist threat!!!
please.. 1.4 billion people are totally weak and divided & you still think of islamist threar???
iran doesnt have any good relation with any islamic or arab country ..
afganistan was invaded
iraq is totally getting distroyed.. and you are talking about islamist threat?
they better defend thier countries .. no ?
wake up & smell some coffee my dear ...

May 12, 2006 6:09 pm  
Blogger _H_ said...

Try not to let such things upset you sam. millions of us are trying our best to help.

This site allows almost all views in the hope they we can convince them of such errors.

May 12, 2006 7:48 pm  
Blogger jonz said...

afganistan was invaded

Moonbat test: Was you against the war on the Taliban?

iraq is totally getting distroyed

No it's on the map last time I checked! It's very sad that the vacuum of power after Saddam turned into such despicable blood fest. But all this doomsaying, I really don't think it helps the Iraqis. Nor would it to "cut & run" with the troops.

1.4 billion people are totally weak and divided

I can only presume you are referring to Muslims. I don't think they would appreciate being all labelled as weak and divided.

There are plenty of Muslims that are progressive, liberal and reformist. They need our support more than ever, not to be mollycoddled as weak and divided.

May 13, 2006 11:22 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The intellectual dishonesty of this blog's writers never ceases to amaze me. It's not unlike the way FOX News claims to be "fair and balanced" while being anything but ("we report, you decide")--comical, really. There's nothing inherently wrong with favoring Iran and defending it at every turn, and supporting its inherent right as a sovereign nation to get all caught up with the nuclear powers--but why not be straight about it? It really wouldn't be that hard, would it?

(There will now follow a lengthy response by _H_ dissecting what I just wrote while steadfastly refusing to come clean about obvious correctness of my main point.)

May 13, 2006 11:43 pm  
Blogger _H_ said...

IQ test for Jonz :-)

Sam is a Palastinian so I think it is safe to assume she will not be pleased with any western attack on a Muslim country. I am sure Jonz that you would dislike any Muslim country to invade a western nation.

Sam has many friends in Iraq who give her first hand knowledge of the situation on the ground as where as you jonz live in the same country as me and have no idea what its like there apart from newspapers and TV. Try spending a month or two in Baghdad before you think you know better than those who live through this every day

Sam Is a Muslim who is both progressive and reformist though
the progress and reform they wish to make is not to become another England or another USA but to progress through their own choices and to have those choices respected by the west.

Maybe you should take a glance at the web sites of those that comment before judging Jonz. You are not a Muslim and you did not grow up with your country occupied by another nation.

I am pleased to read that you believe that Muslims need our support. You surprise me with your caring nature Jonz

:-)

May 13, 2006 11:53 pm  
Blogger _H_ said...

Anonymous

I never claimed to be 'fair and balanced' where as fox news does. That is the difference. so where is the dishonesty in our work ?

This site is merely a balance to the thousands who attack Iran every day. The truth simply lives somewhere in between. I do not claim that everything we write here is the truth. Just 'A' truth.

All web sites are biased and I would suggest to anyone to read this site and to read all the other points of view on other sites. Then decide for yourself based on all the evidence you see.

I have never hidden my view that Iran should be allowed to have it's own nuclear energy. I do not understand what you seem to think is hidden ?


PS

If you take the time to read my comments in this thread you will find I have already stated the response to your point before you decided to post

this site shows the perspective that the thousands of sites do not show.Yes it is selective for it is attempting to redress a balance . No web site from yours to the BBC and beyond is not selective in there choice of articles . millions of sites attacked Iran for 'saying' Israel could be wiped off the map. My tiny little corner of the world points out that Israel said it too

did you not notice ?

May 14, 2006 12:20 am  
Blogger jonz said...

Ok. Firstly let me state that I do have sympathy, and I do care for the Palestinian people.

to progress through their own choices and to have those choices respected by the west

What like voting in Hamas whose stated goal is to "push every last Jew in the sea"? I am to respect Islamo-fascism?

Sam is a Palastinian so I think it is safe to assume she will not be pleased with any western attack on a Muslim country

Why is it safe to assume? Saddam killed millions of Muslims?

She is a Palestinian, a good hearted one from the look of things.

Whatever she says it doesn't look to me like she prefers the Taliban and Saddams Baathist Regime to democracies.

And furthermore, she is culturally a Muslim maybe, however she is not a religious Muslim, thankfully.

May 14, 2006 11:01 am  
Blogger _H_ said...

Hamas do not wish to push Israel into the sea. they just want the israelis out of their country who's borders are defined by the United Nations and Israel refuses to abide by.

Why make Hamas the bad guy ? they have had a cease fire for over a year and they only wish to enforce a UN mandate. surely our armies should be helping them :-)


Its not our place Jonz. If they want help then they would ask. Regime change is illigal under international law

There is no democracy in Iraq of Afghanistan. people have tribal loyalties and simply wait to be told how to vote by the local leaders.

as for "is culturally a Muslim maybe, however she is not a religious Muslim," I find that offensive. you need to stop comparing the muslim world to our western society. Religion is the corner stone of their societys Jonz . They are all religious and they are 99 % peaceful.

to much right wing news maybe ?

PS Jonz please dont call Hamas islamofascists that is just ignorance. They believe in democracy they have tolerance of other faiths. they Hate Al-Qaeda (in fact if Al-Qaeda went to Palastine they would find Hamas shooting at them. They are happy for the Jews to stay in their country. just under the rule of palastine.

They do not deny the rights of jews to exist. They simply want the Israeli occupation to leave their country and go back to where they should be (the UN defined borders). Hamas do not force any kind of strict muslim code on the people or anything like that.

Now Osama bin laden . A man whom has no authority to speak for muslims (he is not qualified to do so , as those that are in Tehran and mecca have clearly stated) you can call as such if you want. though even then its a bit lame. Osama has as much authrority to speak for muslims as I have to speak for the church of england and thats none...

May 15, 2006 1:44 pm  
Blogger Jordan said...

_H_ - Hamas do not wish to push Israel into the sea.

_H_, have you ever read Hamas's OFFICIAL charter?

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"

AND

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him..."

Now you are in a tough position _H_. Their official charter calls for the genocide of the Jews and you insist that critism of Hamas as islamofascist is "ignorant". Someone here is clearly ignorant, but I don't think it is Jonz.

May 15, 2006 3:39 pm  
Blogger _H_ said...

Jordan .

your a little out of date with your prejudice, but hey that doesn't surprise me.

Hamas did not get elected on its charter(from 1988 !).It was elected on it's manifesto(from2006) . You have to keep upto date you can't go round spouting out dated propoganda can you . Maybe your 'ignorance' stopped you from spotting the fact that Hamas dropped it's call for destruction of Israel from it's manifesto

In fact

According to Hamas choice for Palestinian Prime Minister, Ismail Haniyeh:

We do not have any feelings of animosity toward Jews. We do not wish to throw them into the sea. All we seek is to be given our land back, not to harm anybody.

and also

according to the chief of Hamas' political bureau, Khalid Meshaal:

Our message to the Israelis is this: We do not fight you because you belong to a certain faith or culture. Jews have lived in the Muslim world for 13 centuries in peace and harmony; they are in our religion "the people of the book" who have a covenant from God and his messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him), to be respected and protected.Our conflict with you is not religious but political. We have no problem with Jews who have not attacked us — our problem is with those who came to our land, imposed themselves on us by force, destroyed our society and banished our people .

Please keep your ignorance to your own site and thanks for the link :-)

Hamas were elected on a mandate, The manifesto makes no mention of the destruction of the Jewish state and instead takes a more ambiguous position by saying that Hamas had decided to compete in the elections because it would contribute to "the establishment of an independent state whose capital is Jerusalem".

please keep up , you will make youself look ingorant :-)

May 15, 2006 5:29 pm  
Blogger Jay.Mac said...

_H_ - Hamas have yet to recognise the right of Israel to exist. Surely if they were going to renounce their claim to destroy Israel entirely (something they haven't actually done), they wouldn't have a problem recognising Israel?

And there's no democracy in Iraq? Try telling that to the people who risked their lives to go and vote. Something like 12 million of them voted in December 2005. Are you trying to tell me that all 12 million of them are unable to vote on their own, that they have to be told how to by tribal leaders? That sure is an enlightened view you have of the Iraqi people.

And word is that at least two groups claiming allegiance to Al Qaeda are already operating in Gaza.

May 15, 2006 5:32 pm  
Blogger _H_ said...

LOL , Hamas is bound (as is Israel) to the 1967 UN mandate on the seperation of borders , Israel has yet to accept those borders and you complain about Hamas ?

They are both as bad as each other and defending a nation that is occupying another does not surpise me one bit . It fits with your poetic vision of Iraq As for Al-qaeda working in Gaza , thats the most absurd thing I have read in a while . reading the Mossad book of propaganda are you ?Do you have any Idea of the difference between freedom fighters and religious freaks who believe in a 14th century calphite ?guess not

Ooops you could be right !!!!. I have found your al-qaeda in Gaza . here you go

May 15, 2006 5:48 pm  
Blogger DJEB said...

" if they were going to renounce their claim to destroy Israel entirely (something they haven't actually done)..."

Wrong, wrong and wrong.

You are on notice to back your claims or get deleted. Same for the rest of you. See the comment rules for this site.

May 15, 2006 6:32 pm  
Blogger _H_ said...

Jonz . deleted , read the replies first I am not going round in circles . Wikipedia is not a factual source try looking at the article you are quoting , it clearly says in BIG BOLD LETTERS

"The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed." and your stating it as fact , wrong...


Hamas has dropped its call for the destruction of Israel as stated by their prime minister . try again but read what I have said first. . Hamas has dropped its call for the destruction of Israel as stated by their prime minister . try again but read what I have said first.

May 15, 2006 6:40 pm  
Blogger DJEB said...

Jonz, first thing we see at wikipedia is "The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed." Damn right. It is at odds with reports (actually in the link you provided) that have come out. Seems Hamas is not as committed to the missionit had back when the U.S. and Israel where promoting the group.

May 15, 2006 6:41 pm  
Blogger _H_ said...

LOL djeb , its was so clear in the article we both spotted it :-)

May 15, 2006 6:43 pm  
Blogger Jordan said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

May 15, 2006 6:52 pm  
Blogger DJEB said...

If you want to be snarky or add on smart-ass comments, I won't even have the chance to read your entire post before I hit that button...

It is great typing exercise for you, though...

May 15, 2006 6:55 pm  
Blogger DJEB said...

You were, however, correct about us being correct.

May 15, 2006 6:56 pm  
Blogger Jordan said...

The official Hamas website on February 16. 2006 AFTER elected.

"We are a nation that drinks blood, and we know that there is no blood better than the blood of Jews. We will not leave you alone until we have quenched our thirst with your blood, and our children's thirst with your blood."

[AND]

"We will destroy you, blow you up, take revenge against you, [and] purify the land of you, pigs that have defiled our country."

May 15, 2006 7:03 pm  
Blogger _H_ said...

no source Jordan ?

will give you a a few mins to provide the source and to show the statement was made by someone senior to the prime minister of Palastine ? if not your comment will be deleted as per our comment rules ..


better get a move on , clocks ticking

May 15, 2006 7:08 pm  
Blogger Jordan said...

Sure, here is the first source:

http://www.iris.org.il/blog/archives/1058-Hamas-Video-We-Will-Drink-the-Blood-of-the-Jews.html

Here is a second:

http://www.melaniephillips.com/diary/archives/001605.html

And just for fun, here is a funny spoof:

http://www.berryburger.com/funstuff_76.htm

May 15, 2006 7:16 pm  
Blogger Jordan said...

I don't understand, is the official Hamas website not official enough?

May 15, 2006 7:18 pm  
Blogger _H_ said...

LOL how strange , clicked on your link and went straight to the source (the Hamas web site)

it comes up

http://www.haaretz.com/error404.html

it does not exist .. your comment will stay a moment longer ... I asked for THE source , not some right wing web site ,you claimed it was on the Hamas web site

show me


clocks still ticking

May 15, 2006 7:19 pm  
Blogger Jordan said...

Oh, and if you wish to see the video clip of these statements on the official Hamas site, here you go:

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2006/02/hamas_we_drink_.html

"By the life of Allah, we will destroy you. We will blow you up. We will take our revenge on you. We will purify our land of you, pigs, who have defiled our land. By the life of Allah, we will take our vengeance. We are carrying out this operation as harsh revenge against the sons of monkeys and pigs."

May 15, 2006 7:22 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

what source is that hahaha

404 Not Found
We're sorry, but the page you requested could not be found.

May 15, 2006 7:23 pm  
Blogger _H_ said...

you could be just wasting your keyboard here .

LAST TIME

you said it was on the Hamas web site , show me the words on the HAMAS WEB SITE AND who said them


ZZzz

May 15, 2006 7:24 pm  
Blogger Jordan said...

I don't understand Arabic, but here is the video taken and translated directly FROM THE SOURCE!

http://www.pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_Hamas_suicide.asx

Satisfied?

May 15, 2006 7:25 pm  
Blogger DJEB said...

I get the same 404 from... Ha'aretz (which is not Hamas).

May 15, 2006 7:25 pm  
Blogger jonz said...

Please watch the video _H , Djeb

What do you have to say for yourselves, huh?

Another "translation error", no doubt.

May 15, 2006 7:26 pm  
Blogger Jordan said...

You will have to forgive me if I require the clip to be translated from the official Hamas site. I don't speak Arabic.

This is getting ridiculous. The video is right there! Exactly how much evidence do you require?

May 15, 2006 7:27 pm  
Blogger _H_ said...

Nope , translated by whom ? from what context ?

as stated Ha'aretz is not the HAMAS web site , your telling me this is fact

so show me ... I do speak arabic Jorden so show me

May 15, 2006 7:28 pm  
Blogger DJEB said...

I see the link to the Palestinian Watch Website (can't watch the vid from this computer). What I don't see is a statement that negates the position taken during the election campaigns (screaming guy playing up a crowd or no).

I can understand your distaste of Hamas, though. I don't like right-wingers either.

May 15, 2006 7:31 pm  
Blogger _H_ said...

What we have not yet spotted Djeb is any comment on the very article this thread is from , the deputy prime minister of Israel stating that Iran can also be wiped off the map .

The video is not any kind of official Hamas statement . The content does not exist on the Hamas web site . The statement is not in line with Hamas policy and I am still waiting to be shown any senior member of Hamas making such claims since the election . Or is some bloke with a camcorder all were going to get.

please remember I never stated hamas was a wonderful group I said do not call them Islamofascists . I too can respect a distaste for Hamas . I put the line at connecting them to Al-qaeda and extreme islam .. and I am still waiting

May 15, 2006 7:43 PM

May 15, 2006 7:44 pm  
Blogger DJEB said...

I hear crickets. It got really quiet after you mentioned that you read Arabic...

I like crickets.

May 15, 2006 7:48 pm  
Blogger DJEB said...

Very peaceful. Did you hear that?

May 15, 2006 8:31 pm  
Blogger jonz said...

What's the point in posting here, when comments are deleted on a whim?

Well if you wanted to shutdown debate on the issue, looks like you have succeeded. Who wants to make the effort posting here if they are likely to get deleted?

May 15, 2006 8:40 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why don't you guys change the title of the blog to "Terrorism-Apologist"? Like any good apologists, you hide behind claims like "I never stated hamas was a wonderful group" or, generally, things along the lines of "we don't favor Iran, we're just trying to redress the balance." Hamas is a terrorist organization, thorugh and through. Do a google search for "Hamas claims responsibility" (with or without quotes) and see what comes up. Perhaps you will say we should disregard anything that happened before some recent date when Hamas may or may not have stopped publicly calling for the destruction of Israel. That would be a typical apologist rhetorical strategy. Iran is probably the largest sponsor of terror in the world today and you miss few opportunities to "balance the scales" in its favor.

This is what apologists do--let's just be honest. The Nazis had theirs, the Soviets had theirs and the Iranians have theirs, all eager to tell us how everyone misunderstands but hastening to add that they aren't defending the worst aspects of the regime (or, in this case, both the regime and the terror groups it underwrites). You seem happy with the role, so congratulations to you.

May 15, 2006 8:49 pm  
Blogger _H_ said...

47 comments Jonz and 3 deleted for breaking our posting rules , sheez were so harsh :-)

You have just read our posting policy . It is not hard to abide by . I can present you with evidence of me deleting extreme views of hatred of Israel In fact it was only a few days ago I last had to do so . we do not allow hate speach here and we expect people to provide credible sources and to show the curtesy of replying to questions qhen asked

That is our policy take it or leave it

May 15, 2006 8:49 pm  
Blogger _H_ said...

Anonymous , the apoligists would be those that are willing to watch the US led war on Islam without saying a word . as you say , just like the nazis

May 15, 2006 8:50 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's not a war on Islam. Saddam Hussein certainly was a curious target for a war on Islam. Alliance with Saudi Arabia is an odd tactic in a war on Islam. Not wanting lunatics to even come close to having nuclear weapons is not opposition to Islam.

Are you really comparing the U.S. to Nazi Germany (in whose province you would be living if it were not for the U.S., btw). Please list the ways that the U.S. is like Nazi Germany. I, for one, would love to see what you think they are.

May 15, 2006 9:03 pm  
Blogger jonz said...

willing to watch the US led war on Islam

Well they're not doing a very good job of it are they if that's what they're up to?

Do you believe that Islam is a religion of peace, _h_?

May 15, 2006 9:05 pm  
Blogger _H_ said...

Anonymous learn some history , the British air force is the reason I am not speaking german . the US entered the war 2 years to late to help and my govenment is still paying back the 4 trillion dollar bill you gave us once you stopped appeasing and decided to join us .

Of course the US is not the same as Nazi Germany . you made an absurd comment so I gave you the same reply . Having worked with the UK military in iraq your assumptions are a little lame ...

Now as stated in our posting rules please stay on topic this is not an open forum , their are plenty of web sites that are , If you have comments on the statement made by the deputy prime minister of Israel that comply with our rules then go ahead.

Jonz

Yes basically I do believe Islam is a religion of peace , we could sit here all day quoting different parts of the Quran that disagree or agree with my statement (I have seen both)

Extremism exists in all forms of religion and extreme islam can be quite sickening

When my Friend was killed working as a security guard at the docklands by the IRA we did not attack all catholics .

Terrorism is sickening . Osama bin laden and his ilk have no authority to speak for Islam , horrors shuch as 9/11 were condemed straight away across the arab world (though right wingers refuse to see it)

Iran condemmed the attack on the US
Hamas condemmed the attack on the US

Read the opinion of our very own MI6 on Hamas , they do not connect them to Islamofascsism in anyway. and they work harder everyday to keep our country safe then anybody

May 15, 2006 9:17 pm  
Blogger DJEB said...

What's the point in posting here, when comments are deleted on a whim?

Well if you wanted to shutdown debate on the issue, looks like you have succeeded. Who wants to make the effort posting here if they are likely to get deleted?


We have a posting policy that was debated over the course of several weeks then decided upon. I deleted one of yours (think it was yours) as it was a straw man attack + snarky comment. You know the one. You made it again on your own site.

you hide behind claims like "I never stated hamas was a wonderful group"

Scroll up. I made my distaste of them clear. Furthermore, read the archives. We post a lot of information on a lot of terrorism never with any support for terrorist activities. Granted, we are not total hypocrites, so we don't spend all our time pointing at official enemies saying, "Gosh, aren't they horrible and we so pristine."

You are corrert about there not being an official war on Islam. There are many great allies of the west that lead countries in the Islamic world. The war on Islam is one for public consumption only, not an official one. Look as you might, you won't see any government agencies of western nations declaring a war on Islam. You will see one existing, however. It comes in the form of attacks on mosques and Muslims (and people who aren't Muslims but are brown and therefore mistaken as Muslims), immigrations directives, intelligence directives and so on. Get some Muslim friends - particularly those from overseas - and ask them of their exeriences. If they are like my friends, they've probably ran into troubles before.

May 15, 2006 9:40 pm  
Blogger Jay.Mac said...

_H_

Al Qaeda in Gaza- two groups so far that I've heard of.

Palestinian Jundallah
http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/006869.php
Al Quds Islamic Army
http://news.monstersandcritics.com/middleeast/article_1162497.php/Al-Qaeda_distributes_first_communique_in_Gaza

These aren't the same group you linked to (dating from 2002 btw)

As I said in my original comment, Hamas have not renounced their intention to destroy Israel- all they have done is to drop that explicit call from their election manifesto. That declaration still exists in the group's charter- and no one from Hamas has said that they no longer hold that position. An omission is not the same as the group changing their position.

The PA's interior minister has reiterated Hamas' refusal to recognise the right of Israel to exist-

"Addressing supporters in Khan Yunis, he reiterated his Hamas's refusal to recognize Israel's right to exist. "We can't accept the existence of the criminals, executioners and murderers on our blessed lands," he said. "We won't change our position.""

And they also said this-

"Hassan al-Safi, a senior Hamas official in the Gaza Strip, warned that the international sanctions would lead to a "third intifada." He added: "This time it will be a regional intifada which will change the balance of power in the region.""
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1145961290193&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

From Reuters-
Palestinian militant group Hamas urged supporters around the world on Wednesday to send it arms, fighters and money to back its fight against arch-foe Israel. "We ask all the people in surrounding Arab countries, the Muslim world and everyone who wants to support us to send weapons, money and men," Hamas political leader Khaled Meshaal said in a speech at a pro-Palestinian event in Qatar.

"You should not shy away from of this. This is resistance, not terrorism," said Meshaal whose group -- sworn to the destruction of Israel -- leads the Palestinian government.
http://today.reuters.com/News/CrisesArticle.aspx?storyId=L10731417

And from Bloomberg news-
" When Seelye presses on the sorest subject -- recognizing Israel's right to exist -- teeth bare. She asks Mahmoud Zahar, a founder of Hamas and foreign minister of the new government, if the group will change its charter and recognize Israel.

``Why?'' he responds. ``To satisfy you?'' "
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000088&sid=aM.qTe2CgFHk&refer=culture

And finally, Bill Clinton's former special advisor on ARab-Israeli affairs is still under the impression that Hamas is committed to Israel's destruction-
"Hamas, which heads the Palestinian Authority, is sworn to Israel's destruction, its charter replete with anti-Semitism, its outlook tethered to the use of violence."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/14/AR2006051400807.html

Hamas may have run on a manifesto- but they are still bound to their founding charter. If you can provide me with ecidence that Hamas has in any way said that it will even recognise Israel or that it has altered its stance on not destroyng it, please do provide it.

May 15, 2006 10:10 pm  
Blogger _H_ said...

ZZZzz

I repeat the very same quote as before

According to Hamas choice for Palestinian Prime Minister, Ismail Haniyeh:

We do not have any feelings of animosity toward Jews. We do not wish to throw them into the sea. All we seek is to be given our land back, not to harm anybody.

and also

according to the chief of Hamas' political bureau, Khalid Meshaal:

Our message to the Israelis is this: We do not fight you because you belong to a certain faith or culture. Jews have lived in the Muslim world for 13 centuries in peace and harmony; they are in our religion "the people of the book" who have a covenant from God and his messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him), to be respected and protected.Our conflict with you is not religious but political. We have no problem with Jews who have not attacked us — our problem is with those who came to our land, imposed themselves on us by force, destroyed our society and banished our people .


Israel is mentioned in the second quote DIRECTLY . strange Hamas would never utter the word before ...


Now my question .

why do you not condemn Israel for refusing to abide by International law and retreating to the boundaries as defined by the United Nations ?

Why do you not condemn Israel for building Nuclear weapons and refusing to sign the NPT ?

why do you not condemn Israel for attacks that kill Palestinian children ?

why do you not condem Israel for destroying homes and lives and building a wall on land the entire world has stated is not theirs ?

May 15, 2006 10:21 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I guess Peres should have just noted that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones and left it at that. It's the same type of comment as the one he did make. Notably, both comments only make sense after someone else has been intemperate. The point is just to give a somewhat ominous reminder that two can play at whatever game was threatened by the first party, in this case, Iran and its terrorist allies.

I have a very hard time taking you seriously, _H_, when you write things like this: "the British air force is the reason I am not speaking german. the US entered the war 2 years to late to help." I'm sure very few of your compatriots share your views. Obviously, without the U.S. there would have been no D-Day, no second front, no thousand-plane raids to destroy German industrial capacity, etc. And without U.S. assistance in its darkest hour, Britain's troubles would have been exponentially greater. The Battle of Britain only mattered in a hindsight premised on U.S. engagement. Without U.S. assistance, Britain could simply have been throttled and starved to death at Germany's leisure. Eventually there would have been no fuel for those planes. Even if you deny all that, you might do well to wonder if you would be speaking Russian now without U.S. inolvement in the European theater. In my opinion, your reflexive dislike of the United States--evidenced this time by by those curious views about WWII--is a huge Achilles' heel of this site and most of your commentary.

May 15, 2006 10:29 pm  
Blogger _H_ said...

You can not assume all that anonymous , History is concrete and the events have happened , the greatest military minds (German , UK and American)have war gamed operation sealine ( the invasion of the UK) and all have agreed that the Germans would have failed in such an attempt.

your wonderful post prophecy's have no base for an argument.

we paid for the fuel supplied and until then end of 2007 we are still paying for it. do you really believe the US would have supplied that fuel without the 4 trillion dollar bill ?

if so why didn't they ?

I have no hatred of the United states I do however have a hatred of current US foreign policy.

this debate is becoming absurd , the post is about a statement made by the Israeli deputy prime minister and is days old , nobody is reading it apart from those that are reading Jonz post on his own site.

This is not a forum to attack my entire persona , you can use Jonz own site to do that.

I have already stated that all web sites are biased and that applies here as much as the places you frequent.

If you do not like my site then do not read it. If you wish to attack my view of the world then create a web site and feel free to attack away.

If you wish to comment on the article then feel free (as long as you stick to our posting policy)

I feel that all those that came here to reply to a comment made to Jonz have had their say. anybody can post a comment on a blog that brings the like minded folk in to defend it , with respect Jonz it seems cowardly.

If you jonz or jordan or jay mac wish to reply to any specific points made to them then your welcome .

If you (anonymous) wish to reply then please give yourself a name to identify yourself (I don't care if its real just that the comment is coming from the same person.)

to all others if you wish to post here then keep it on the topic of the post or waste your time and your keyboard just to be deleted.

H

May 15, 2006 10:54 pm  
Blogger DJEB said...

I think it is worth repeating what you said at the very beginning before the comments even started:

"There, now they have both supposedly said the same thing. Can we now cut out the word play and deal with the realities on the ground instead of the crap that comes out of peoples mouths ? ... Somehow I doubt it"


You were right to doubt it.

May 15, 2006 11:08 pm  
Anonymous Charming Visitor said...

The point is really that without U.S. assistance the Germans would have been able to do with Britain pretty much as they liked--starve it, invade it, ignore it, etc. While I strongly question your $4 trillion figure, it's interesting to wonder why the U.S. shouldn't have expected to be repaid for resources it provided. That's the usual way things work. Your views about the usefulness of the U.S. to Britain in WWII are extraordinary. Frankly, I think anyone with such views probably would have a lot of bizarre views about the current world situation . . . and lo and behold. But it's true, this is a tangent with very little direct bearing on what Peres said. As for staying on that topic, _H_, you chose to ignore my last topical comment about Peres' remark as an anonymous poster, which was:

"I guess Peres should have just noted that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones and left it at that. It's the same type of comment as the one he did make. Notably, both comments only make sense after someone else has been intemperate. The point is just to give a somewhat ominous reminder that two can play at whatever game was threatened by the first party, in this case, Iran and its terrorist allies."

I think my comment is a pretty good refutation of the notion that "they have both supposedly said the same thing." It is ludicrous in such a situation to willfully ignore who made the initial threat and who merely reminded that person that he might be standing on thin ice. It's not "the same thing" at all.

May 16, 2006 12:03 am  
Blogger DJEB said...

Uhhhh, so now Peres did say what he said but it doesn't couunt, so he didn't say it? That's special.

May 16, 2006 12:39 am  
Blogger Tu s. Tin said...

_H_

I came into this argument through an outside link... and I am alittle confused by some of the things you say.

1. "Hamas do not force any kind of strict muslim code on the people or anything like that."

are you saying Hamas are democratic millitants? and they would not like to see an Islamic state?

2. "They are happy for the Jews to stay in their country. just under the rule of palastine."

Palasatine doesn't want an Islamic state either then?
That would be good for the jews living there since in an Islamic state non muslims are concidered unworthy of equal rights, dignity or respect. and I got that information straight from an Islamic forum.

But the topic of this post was Iran and Israel, I dont feel this was a threat either, it was a reply. And even if you say hamas had retracted its plans wipe the jews from the map - Iran ( who are public hamas supporters) have not.
I also would like you to read this....

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49807

seems Iran also backs the Taliban
(who do support Al-qaeda)

and we havent even brought pakistan into the picture yet.....
not looking to pretty.

May 16, 2006 12:52 am  
Blogger unaha-closp said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

May 16, 2006 12:58 am  
Blogger Jay.Mac said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

May 16, 2006 1:04 am  
Anonymous Charming Visitor said...

Was there some dispute about whether Peres said it?

djeb, if you are walking along the street, minding your own business, and I come up and tell you that I'd like nothing more than to reach into your chest, pull out your heart and feed it to you (just for the sake of crafting a dramatic analogy, mind you), and you respond that I should remember that I can also have my heart pulled out and fed to me, have we really said the same thing?

First, it surely matters that I made the first threat. You were just minding your own business. (If you want to argue that Israel wasn't minding its own business, then that's your politics coming through).

Second, you (and Peres) actually didn't say the same thing. One could take the implication that you (or Israel) would be the one delivering the fatal blow, but the statement is not specific. A condemned man may say "judge not lest ye be judged" without meaning that he is the one who will do the judging.

So tell us again how these two leaders "said the same thing."

On a tangential note, if you two gave the U.S. as much benefit of the doubt that you give to Hamas (and again, I invite anyone to do that google search for "hamas claims responsibility"), you wouldn't be arguing that this is a war against Islam, or a war for oil or whatever--because, after all, the U.S. has said that it is not.

May 16, 2006 1:17 am  
Blogger _H_ said...

Charming visitor lovely name :-)

On the war either check the archives or email me , I have debated that many times and Most of the Brits that I know do take offence at the very notion that we were saved by anyone !

The phrase "Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few. " is one I think you will accept was in direct reference to the the the British Air force , not the American loan ...

Of course (sick of repeating myself) the world is very grateful for the US when it finally joined but nobody can doubt the US government tried to appease and was dealing with the Germans too. (why do I need to write this two days running , I made the same point on the article regarding the full letter sent to bush . And again about a week before that one ...

People lost family members during the war both here and in the US and I am sure we are both sorry for their losses. My reply is not one of ingratitude simply one of balance . I do not feel that the UK would have lost the war without US financial loans .... but we will never know . that does not mean I am not graceful but it sure as hell does mean that nobody is going to use that lame excuse in an argument about Israel . it has no bearing on this debate .

Now I have two choices , delete the message for being off topic ( I have not defined any of you as a regular) or respond with equal sarcasm and move on .. I picked B and you followed on , If I had picked A then the smarmy claims of censorship would have come instead , i picked the better option

It is also ludicrous my dear charming visitor to attempt to finding meaning in either statement by Iran or Israel I hope you have read the FULL Translation from the irnain presidents remarks . lets not take them out of context , read the whole speach then of course your charming self is most welome to return

You see , so much more curtesy when you use a name :-)

I stated so many times before to people whom have judged without reading the archives. My opinions on the war , my respect from US involvement, my dismay at the delay of such involvement and the pride in the RAF who convinced the Germans that such an attack on the UK was pointless . all these points I have made over and over again .

If you want to understand my opinions more than read the archives , with respect this site get a few people a week who consistently make the very same point and fail to take a more detailed look at our opinions across the web site . I do not have time to repeat the same line every day or even every thread

I accept that a site such as this can invoke passionate responses (both for and against) but the Subject matter of the post is what your requested to reply on (I note in this case you did) Not the writers of the blog whom you do not know and can only assume as to what motivates me to post what I do. You may well now have learnt that I was in Iraq , you may well have learnt that I also spent time in palestine , you may well of learnt that counter terrorism is my field of expertise and that I am trained to mediate the huge gulf between eastern and western thinking.

You may not like it but the British , the US and even the Insurgents talk to each other all the time . Israel and ha mas are talking as we speak (and have been for weeks) because communication is the ONLY way to peace . Like I say I am sure you do not approve , but that is the way the worlds governments work so you better get used to it , rhetoric to the public and cups of tea in private , welcome to the real world

Now if you enter a conversation with someone in Ha mas or Israel with the opening gambit of making a demand of them , then you will be thrown out the office in seconds . all I see from dissenters here is anger , anger at the Muslims , well I am sorry , that anger will only bring more pain

sure the Muslims have to listen to us , but heck , we have to listen to them too and whilst us mere fools sit here and argue about who said what , the Israelis and Ha mas are sitting down in real (if not declared) talks to try and achieve peace .

That is a personal debate that I am more than willing to have with anyone who emails me. We have a policy for a reason and that is define a sorting system for what are sensible comments and what are not , that is our right on our own web site .

We must have order and now I have linked you to your IP you have made a few comments of a similar nature over the last few days .

If you wish to debate with 'me' then email 'me' if you wish to comment on an article then comment on the web site.

This thread about the Israeli statement has been taken from Hamas to al-qaeda to islamofascism , to hatred of america , to the sense (or not) in my mind and now of into world war 2 ....

Again that is not the purpose of this web site and looking back through most of these comments should have been deleted , Jonz is big enough and strong enough to defend himself , If I placed any of these comments on sites such as ICH for example you would find aprox 60 to 80 replies in a matter of minuites.

Jonz himself states I do appreciate you blog, even though I disagree with your slant on almost every issue. There are suprisingly few blogs like yours so I am little surprised that he dropped his standards to play such a game as this.

I might well in the future put up the occasional (open thread) and let everyone loose but when you are dealing with issues that bring such emotion (from US citizens killed due to 9/11 to the famillies of those slaughtered by the US in falluja ) it of course brings anger (from both sides) and I am delighted to bring many from the arab world who read this blog and read the dissent and the support of their and our actions , dialogue is the way forward but only dialoge with those whoms minds are open to the possibility that everything they believe is not by definition correct

If your so concerned about my method then email me , I dont bite but refrain from disrupting posts about your opinion of little old me ..


Tu s tin

But the topic of this post was Iran and Israel

exactly and that is where it will remain , thankyou for your comments , so it has been removed , I will not respond to them but read back you will find the same points already made and responded too in this thread , we have already played the you quote I quote game and I have already stated that no new posters can enter this debate unless it is clearly on topic , yours is not as you state yourself , Hang around if I post on hamas feel free to pop in and leave a comment

Unuha

same thing , sorry , nothing new in your comment , we have been their and this thread is simply for the debate on the article above , feel free to leave a comment as stated

if you read the comments you would have saved yourself time by either (a) leaving something on topic or (b) leaving your many friends here whom I have said I will continue to discuss with , but it seems you did not

Jaymac you asked me some questions and i showed curtesy and replied , I asked you some questions and you have choosen to ingnore them , feel free to come back and answer the questions asked of you before you ask any more of me .

Is it to much to ask you to show the curtest of replying to the questions asked of you by the site moderator ?

deleted , if you wish answer the questions try again but this is not a bombard H hour , you want a two way conversation then respond in kind

oh my , looks lik 'charming visitor; is the only one to survive that little rant , he must be charming after all :-)

May 16, 2006 1:22 am  
Blogger _H_ said...

PS tu s in , Your comment was respectful so I have left it in place due to this being your first comment here , I am more than willing to discuss the Hamas issue on a future thread with that subject , this one does not.
or contact me directly via email .

This is not a personal slate on you but sadly your timing on a post that is days old (and nobody but you guys are reading) is very boring

The topic is Israels deputy prime minister and if you wish to comment on that feel free

May 16, 2006 1:30 am  
Blogger unaha-closp said...

Hamas are worthy of criticism, because it will take a lot of killing to make Palestine from river to sea happen. You might not like to take notice, but Israel is nuclear armed and is very strong. To fufill its aim Hamas will need to defeat Israel, this will most likely require a nuclear war and the deaths of tens or hundreds of millions of innocent people.

It is my opinion that any inhumanities committed by Israel in Palestine are of minor concern compared to the conflict that will be required to defeat Israel. Hamas should be destroyed because they have goals that are threatening to the entire world. For the same reason Iran should be dissuaded from having a nuclear program. The injustices suffered by the Palestinians/Muslims/Arabs are trivial compared to what will be required to wipe Israel off the map/make palestine from river to sea.

realism uber alles

May 16, 2006 1:45 am  
Blogger _H_ said...

yea sure Unha

Hamas should be destoyed (hate speach , posting policy , yawn yawn) , Hamas going to destroy the very people they wish to save, yea of course they are .. thats just hate speacj unuha

NOTE

this post is NOT about Hamas . I keep trying to remind you all to read the post . If your comment is one of Israel or Iran then go ahead , Hamas has absoulutely no bearing to this post apart from one person (jonz) who has every right to defend my comment to him . the rest of you either post on topic (that is NOT hamas or icecream or sweets or world war 2 , or Islamofasicm or any of the other weird lines we have gone down)

READ THE POST

I really do not wish to ,for it has been ammusing to read but I will close this thread down if people keep taking the post off topic and continue to NOT answer direct questions asked of them by the site moderators

your choice

May 16, 2006 2:03 am  
Blogger unaha-closp said...

Ok - Israel deserves and gets more respect because it is better armed, more capable and a richer state than Iran.

Iran is condemmed for even thinking it has a right to nuclear power because it has a stated ambition to wipe Israel off the map. It contributes assistance to proxies like Hezbollah and Hamas who likewise wish to see the removal of Israel. Rule A1 - don't prod sleeping bears with sticks and don't let any idiot standing near you do it. Nuclear war bad, so please keep the Iranians away from pointy sticks.

On the otherhand Israel making such a statement is not a concern, because it is not a threat and not an intention to make nuclear war happen. This is obviously self evident because Iran is not a charring radioactive wasteland right now, when right now there is nothing stopping Israel from killing everybody in Iran. All Israel is making is a warning, it is not stating a desire. We would be well served to respect this warning.

Plus Israel is armed with nukes, so we cannot do anything other than talk nicely to it. Talk nicely ok.

May 16, 2006 2:47 am  
Blogger _H_ said...

We shall see Unuha , I think you will find that Israel or the US will directly attack Iran (again starting an illigal war) but Iran will make no strike against Israel for they have no such weapons and the IAEA (remember those guys that were correct on Iraq when we were all talking out of our backsides) have made no such claim that they are trying to make any such weapon at all .

Israel is a threat it defies international law and refuses to sign the NPT , and they currently have a country under occupation as defined by international law

my solution , increase the inspections of Iran and make Israel sign the NPT and give up its weapons ..

then both Iran and Israel can scream at each other till they are blue in the face . but to attack the country that is signed up to the NPT and ignore the one who already has 200 warheads and is not signed up is the ultimate hypocracy

at least your getting back on topic

May 16, 2006 2:55 am  
Blogger _H_ said...

people , I am going to bed so I am not here to respond to a bombardment of one sided comments .

Comment moderation has been enabled whilst I sleep to prevent any abuse of this web site (i am sure some of you would do no such thing)

any comments sent (on topic) or in direct reply from the people who I have mentioned above will be allowed through tomorrow but this site will not be left apon to abuse . especially from those who are not arguing on the post but merely on a comment specifically for one person

I could be equally childish and post some of these comments here on the many web sites I frequent but I am big enough and old enough to defend my own words on my own web site.

sleep well , thank you for the debate and anything sensible will be processed tomorrow and allowed through based not on whether I agree or not but simply on its relivence to the post or a reply directly from a person whom I have adressed directly above

"There, now they have both supposedly said the same thing. Can we now cut out the word play and deal with the realities on the ground instead of the crap that comes out of peoples mouths ? ... Somehow I doubt it"

your correct Djeb , I was very correct to doubt it

H

May 16, 2006 3:24 am  
Blogger unaha-closp said...

ultimate hypocracy / ultimate practicality

tom-mah-to / tom-may-to

Those 200 nukes change the game.

An attack now will be good because it will prevent Iran from getting nuclear weapons. You say they don't have them, I agree, best time to attack for Israel and friends - targeted attack now rather than a nuclear apocalypse later.

Israel will not hold back if prodded with a nuclear stick later. APOCALYPSE would be wholly bad. Only solution is to swallow any pride and go with the practical/hypocritical condemnation of Iran. We won't feel good about it in the morning, but at least we'll have a morning.

Or you could go with condemning Israel, only thats never actually worked - because they know they are invulnerable (those 200+ nukes again).

Better to be practical than fried.

May 16, 2006 4:02 am  
Blogger _H_ said...

Thats more like it Unaha.

Your true colours (colors) are showing through now.

You know as well as I do that Iran would never attack israel for the lives of palastinians would befurther destroyed in any fall out and Iran would gain no support in the middle east for such genocide.

As for your wish for genocide of the people of Iran that clearly is sickening and I will leave you to your wishes for nothing I can tell you will convince you of the error of such thoughts.

Nobody in this world apart from Israel and the US are disccusing any attack on Iran , your view is one of extremism , no different to those you wish to condem.

The United nations in all its wonder will never authorise force on Iran unless their is real and viable IAEA evidence that they are building a bomb (there is not)

The UK , Europe , China , Asia , India and even the african states have all concluded that such a barbaric act has no place at the table , even the majority of americans (in a recent survey posted here) do not wish for such sickness

Your views to me are one of guarded designs on genocide and such a post would normally be removed from this site but I gave you the option to reply so Your message will stay purely due to respected by statement to you.

Please feel free to use your own sites to practice such speach. You have had your reply , your reply will stay and any further talk of the wish to murder Iranians (it seems on the assumption that you view them as lesser people than israelis) will not be welcome

Thank you for you comment

May 16, 2006 2:10 pm  

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