Osama tape or Osama fake
Personally I have quite a number of doubts about the latest Bin Laden tape. If you remember there was the independent research that was carried out in 2002 on one of these 'CIA confirmed' tapes that showed it almost certainly to be a fake. Then we had the fantastically timed October 2004 fiction which gave the US President a six point lead as he headed into the election.This latest tape is incredibly poor quality ( probably to stop the Swiss from exposing this one too) and is already being questioned by scholars and journalists (windows media file) alike.
As per usual the timing is perfect for the President and as noted in this BBC article 'the immediate political effect of the tape will probably be to boost support for President George W Bush'.
Many people including Pakistan's President Musharraf believe Bin laden died quite some time ago and a number of independent analysts date his death on or around the week of December 10, 2001. Which will of course be well known to those that went to his funeral. ( copy of Arabic newspaper article printed in al-Wafd, Wednesday, December 26, 2001 Vol 15 No 4633 announcing Bin Ladens funeral here )
If you take into account the reams of evidence available for his death in December 2001 then it makes his last interview all the more interesting . It was in the Karachi-based Pakistani daily newspaper, Ummat, and printed on September 28, 2001. Bin laden was asked about the September 11th attacks and this was his reply...
"I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle. "
An amazing contrast to his willingness to put his name to every terrorist action since his death.
Now don't get me wrong I am no fan of Bin Laden and I certainly would not want to defend him. His list of crimes even without the 'incident' on 9/11 would make almost any government put him at the top of their wanted list , but that obviously was not the view of the CIA when they last met him in July 2001. The fact that CIA trained and funded Bin Laden during the Russian occupation of Afghanistan is so well known that it is barely worth a link. ( but here is one anyway )
Osama was a nasty piece of work and the world is better off without him. I just wonder how long the Emmanuel Goldstein routine will continue to work on a significant number of the American population.
Anyway for those that believe he is still alive and well here is the full transcript of the fanatical terrorists latest rant recorded during a spare five minutes away from his constant need for kidney dialysis. Apparently helping out President Bush just in time for the warrantless domestic spying hearing this coming week.
How Ironic.
posted by _H_ at 1:21 am
23 Comments:
This is another phoney tape made by the CIA-Mossad. It's all BULLSHIT.
Osama is mad and evil man, sick, and i think this tape shows that he is seeking help
If he is still alive, then why hasn't he made his usual video appearances? And if he's not alive, how can he 'seek help.'
Listen to the tape at this website and tell me if you think it's an obvious fake. I think it is.
johniwanski.com
"Osama was a nasty piece of work and the world is better off without him. I just wonder how long the Emmanuel Goldstein routine will continue to work on a significant number of the American population."
The piece you link to in that quote argues he had no role in 9/11. You cite it without criticism in support of another most dubious proposition--that he died years ago. You quote another source (the doubtless completely objective Karachi daily) supporting, and seem to subscribe to, the idea that OBL really wasn't involved in the 9/11 attacks, but readers might want to examine this for a more conventionally-accepted view of his involvement, from his own mouth:
BIN LADEN: (...Inaudible...) we calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on the position of the tower. We calculated that the floors that would be hit would be three or four floors. I was the most optimistic of them all. (...Inaudible...) due to my experience in this field, I was thinking that the fire from the gas in the plane would melt the iron structure of the building and collapse the area where the plane hit and all the floors above it only. This is all that we had hoped for.
I find your blog amusing, as in comical.
The line (not link) provided by _H_ quotes bin Laden making the claims that he wasn't involved in the 9/11. Perhaps that escaped you. It certainly made your post amusing, as in comical (sorry about the plagiarism).
The piece you link to in that quote argues he had no role in 9/11.
Well infact the quote comes directly from Bin laden himself and post dates your claimed source
personally I have yet to see ANY evidence that he was directly connected apart from being told by the American administration that he was (sadly to date they have provided no proof of this claim)
You cite it without criticism in support of another most dubious proposition--that he died years ago.
so your one of these people that like to think Afghanistan is fitted out with a kidney dialysis machine in every other cave ?
You quote another source (the doubtless completely objective Karachi daily) supporting, and seem to subscribe to, the idea that OBL really wasn't involved in the 9/11 attacks, but readers might want to examine this for a more conventionally-accepted view of his involvement, from his own mouth:
'more conventionally-accepted view' of his involvement tells me your a right winged American , well hello , I am neither American or right wing an i can assure you that the conventional view that you believe is widly held is far from accepted outside the little get together's of the American right . Most people tend to question either
(a) that he had anything to do with it
or
(b) that his involvment was somehow connected to a group such as the PNAC
if you want to find out what happened on 9/11 ask companies like bechtel who were working with the bin ladens so closely , ask the CIA who funded , trained and supplied with stinger missiles the infamous Bin laden when fighting the previous enemy (the communists) in Afghanistan
you know when he was connected to the very people Ronald reagan called "the moral equivelent of our founding farthers"
Of course I question your view , sadly the CIA agents who were speaking to him in july 2001 are unavailible for comment . A number of people have been to his funeral and his vaste fortune has already been divided from his will , usually all these things tend to imply that the person is dead ..
burying him in a hole in the ground would assure us of that
your snip is amusing but considering the number of links that you have failed to quote apon or mention from the article above it is no surprise that you missed the excellent work of the swiss researchers who prooved to an accuracy of 95% that the tape they looked at was a fake
so who made the fake ?
why did the CIA say it was genuine ?
why has their not been any video since ?
and why would a country that obviously lies to its own people , places false stories into the Iraqi press , fails to admit that it tortures and kidnaps people and has been found out already to be lying about the accuracy of bin laden tapes be belived by anyone .....
Didnt your great leader once make a speach where he said "fool me once....."
I find your blog amusing, as in comical.
I take it from that your an avid reader of Neocon weekly . I am sure if that is your main reading material then sites such as this will seem amussing
btw the link to the washington post article no longer exists so It is impossible to cross reference it to see if any independent research has been carried out on the 'tape' outside of the US and the Neocon propaganda machine . If you have a source to such a independent non partisan researcher on this 'tape' I will be glad to look at it but you supply nothing as yet that would convince me or the millions of people like me around the world that such a link could be clasified as 'evidence'
I have a hundred doubts about the evil act that was commited on 9/11 and for the sake of all those that lost their lives (and loved ones) I hope one day we all have the answers
first on that list of a hundred would be for you to tell me how 9 of the hijakers on those planes are alive and well and enjoying their lives ... kind of hard to do when you were supposedly blown up in a plane
I do not personally rule out that Osama may have been involved in some way , he did work for the CIA after all , but so did Saddam and that did not help him much .
If you have sources then please supply them , I would accept almost any non american funded or connected research as being worthy of analysis .
LOL Who let Anonymous in here,shouldnt he be sending his scripts to Disney.
This is the tape anonymous is talking about link obviously genuine as you can see if you call fiction as fact that is.
Thanks everybody but all anyone has to do is take the quote made by Bin Laden (in my article) and put it into Google. It is not like I am making some amazing claim , over 200,000 web sites got there before me.
That he denied any involvement in the attack is well known and the question marks over the authenticity of the tape claiming he did commit the act are numerous to say the least.
Now to clarify I am not saying he did or did not commit the act at all , what I am saying is that no evidence has ever been supplied to prove that he did . There is no question marks (that I know of about) about his interview with the Pakistani newspaper and there are plenty of question marks over the 'bin Laden' tape that suddenly appeared after his claimed death saying that it was recorded in November
But I do wonder why 'Bin Laden' whilst praising the attacks on 9/11 would personally name two of the hijackers(in the full length transcript of the video not the small snippet in anons link)
He personally thanks Wail M. Alshehri and Salem Alhazmi who are very much still alive today and weren't actually on those planes or working for Al-Qaeda in anyway
Now why would he make an error like that ?
Well infact the quote comes directly from Bin laden himself and post dates your claimed source
I was talking about the link on Emmanuel Goldstein. The author of the piece is making what I think is a very non-mainstream argument that OBL was not connected to the attacks. I think the argument that he is dead can be made more strongly if you don't associate it with the argument that he was blameless on 9/11. The truth is that none of us knows for sure whether he is alive or not. Certainly it is interesting that the recent tape mentions Wolfowitz, who has been out of the government since late spring of last year. To me that suggests it may be an older tape than those who believe its authenticity are supposing. One would think a U.S. government forgery wouldn't make the outdated reference to Wolfowitz, but I'm sure you would be willing to ascribe that to U.S. deviousness.
personally I have yet to see ANY evidence that he was directly connected apart from being told by the American administration that he was (sadly to date they have provided no proof of this claim)
If you want to reflexively distrust everything the U.S. government says, go for it. You will even be right sometimes. But why not try to be an informed and critical consumer of information. Don't believe all this stuff you read on conspiracy websites.
so your one of these people that like to think Afghanistan is fitted out with a kidney dialysis machine in every other cave ?
I was actually very surprised to learn the extent of the Tora Bora complex, whose construction OBL oversaw for a decade or more. It's a bit of an injustice to call these "caves." I'm willing to say he could be dead. If he is alive, it's impressive that he's managed to surround himself with helpers crazy enough to be unmotivated by the $25 million bounty. You should add the fact that no one has turned him in to your list of arguments, by the way--hard to turn him in if he's dead. But while I'm giving rhetorical advice, I suggest that you can't just throw in every article you find that claims he's dead and call it good. One of them says he was blown up at Tora Bora, and the next says he died peacefully from some lung complications. Both stories can't be correct.
'more conventionally-accepted view' of his involvement tells me your a right winged American , well hello , I am neither American or right wing an i can assure you that the conventional view that you believe is widly held is far from accepted outside the little get together's of the American right . Most people tend to question either
(a) that he had anything to do with it
or
(b) that his involvment was somehow connected to a group such as the PNAC
Hello. I'm an American, but not right wing. Maybe you think there is no other kind, in which case "right winged American" wasn't an attempt to differentiate among us. But anyway, since I am here and you are not, I can tell you with some authority that almost no one in this country questions his involvement (you may feel there is false consciousness, but I'm just telling you what the reality is). There's not much question among educated people in other parts of the world, from all I can gather (again, they could all be dupes). The idea that many people question whether "his involvement was somehow connected to a group such as the PNAC" is funny, because for better or worse only a tiny number of people in the U.S. or elsewhere has heard of that group. Do you mean to suggest that some affiated entity of the U.S. government orchestrated 9/11? I don't really understand (b) otherwise.
if you want to find out what happened on 9/11 ask companies like bechtel who were working with the bin ladens so closely , ask the CIA who funded , trained and supplied with stinger missiles the infamous Bin laden when fighting the previous enemy (the communists) in Afghanistan
you know when he was connected to the very people Ronald reagan called "the moral equivelent of our founding farthers"
Are you saying that these companies and the CIA were involved in orchestrating 9/11. Since you don't think OBL was involved, it wouldn't seem that his closeness with Bechtel or the CIA would give the latter any insight into "what happened on 9/11." The U.S. has obviously allied itself with some pretty unsavory characters over the years, I'll grant you that. Typically the alliance was against someone worse, at least as we saw it (Hitler, the USSR, Iran, etc.), and it typically didn't long outlast the worse threat. You may disagree.
Of course I question your view , sadly the CIA agents who were speaking to him in july 2001 are unavailible for comment . A number of people have been to his funeral and his vaste fortune has already been divided from his will , usually all these things tend to imply that the person is dead ..
You should read the Guardian story again. It's a report about a report and it's filled with indicia that the underlying report is suspect. The funeral thing seems shaky, since other people said he got vaporized at Tora Bora. I confess I don't know what became of his "vaste fortune" but it wouldn't surprise me if any under Saudi jurisdiciton had been taken or redistributed to avoid having it taken.
burying him in a hole in the ground would assure us of that
your snip is amusing but considering the number of links that you have failed to quote apon or mention from the article above it is no surprise that you missed the excellent work of the swiss researchers who prooved to an accuracy of 95% that the tape they looked at was a fake
No special reason to favor them just because they are not American.
so who made the fake ?
why did the CIA say it was genuine ?
why has their not been any video since ?
and why would a country that obviously lies to its own people , places false stories into the Iraqi press , fails to admit that it tortures and kidnaps people and has been found out already to be lying about the accuracy of bin laden tapes be belived by anyone .....
Didnt your great leader once make a speach where he said "fool me once....."
Rhetorical questions, I assume.
I find your blog amusing, as in comical.
I take it from that your an avid reader of Neocon weekly . I am sure if that is your main reading material then sites such as this will seem amussing
I'm not. I'm a skeptical mainstream American and the kind of person you ought to be interested in convincing. Sorry about the "comical" comment. You are obviously committed and sincere. I think your reflexive distrust of the U.S. is your Achilles' heel. There's no reason to doubt that the 9/11 attacks were conceived and conducted by islamic terrorists. But my sense is that you do. My sense is that you would disbelieve something that was obviously true, if you could somehow trace it back to someone connected to the U.S. government.
btw the link to the washington post article no longer exists so It is impossible to cross reference it to see if any independent research has been carried out on the 'tape' outside of the US and the Neocon propaganda machine . If you have a source to such a independent non partisan researcher on this 'tape' I will be glad to look at it but you supply nothing as yet that would convince me or the millions of people like me around the world that such a link could be clasified as 'evidence'
The other commenter has a link about the tape, from a site that talks elsewhere about JFK, MLK, JFK, Jr. assassination conspiracies, compares George Bush to Hitler (please), etc. I'm inclined to subscribe to something then-Vice-Presdient George H.W. Bush said years ago: "If it looks like a duck, and it walks like a duck, and it talks like a duck, AND IT SAYS IT'S A DUCK, then it's a duck. So I'd say Al Qaeda orchestrated 9/11. I've already said we don't know whether OBL is alive or not. I think the wisest course is to assume he is absent credible PROOF to the contrary. I happen to think he is/was something of a figurehead and Zawahiri is the the real brains of the operation (as Al Q only came into its current form after merging with Zawahiri's Egyptian Islamic Jihad).
I have a hundred doubts about the evil act that was commited on 9/11 and for the sake of all those that lost their lives (and loved ones) I hope one day we all have the answers
Yes, you do. I think we know the basic facts.
first on that list of a hundred would be for you to tell me how 9 of the hijakers on those planes are alive and well and enjoying their lives ... kind of hard to do when you were supposedly blown up in a plane
I guess you're going to have to fill me (and most everyone else in the mainstream world) in on this one.
I do not personally rule out that Osama may have been involved in some way , he did work for the CIA after all , but so did Saddam and that did not help him much .
If we're doing guilt by association, someone might think all this defending of OBL says something about you. If you're saying the CIA or some other U.S. instrumentality, or the Mossad, was behind 9/11, that is just so far out there that I honestly don't think it's worth having a dialogue about. Only because of the Achilles' heel in how you reason--which I mentioned above--are you able to think such things.
I was talking about the link on Emmanuel Goldstein. The author of the piece is making what I think is a very non-mainstream argument that OBL was not connected to the attacks.
First Up let me get a few things straight , by American I mean your governmental administration , your correct in stating the view is not main stream within the United states but you fail to notice that the United states represents a mere 4 percent of the worlds population and not being American I view the US perspective as being of course worthy of note but it does not gain any more respect in the accuracy of its views then any other 4 % that you would care to mention.
To say the view I express is not mainstream is of course a very insular view , I accept that it is not the most common view within your country but I think you will find the numbers pan out slightly differently once you leave your country and ask in Europe or Asia and especially the middle east . your reading a site written from the united kingdom and Japan and not from the united states so it would be a little silly to come here expecting to read what you view as being mainstream in your own country ...
I think the argument that he is dead can be made more strongly if you don't associate it with the argument that he was blameless on 9/11.
If you read my reply I do not state that he was blameless I said there is no evidence of his guilt and nothing in what you reply here has presented any
As stated if you wish to supply evidence of his guilt I would be happy to look at it
it seems from my perspective that I am showing an interview (which you doubt) where Osama states clearly that he did not commit that act . You are showing an article (which I doubt) which shows that he did commit that act .
even assuming that both articles are true we still have conflicting evidence about a sickening crime that caused the deaths of 3000 people at the world trade center and the subsequent effect of the deaths many more than 100,000 due to the actions taken due to this events .
considering the tragic loss of human life you would think that we would have all have been shown evidence by now that the deed was committed as we have been told and we have not .. so you tell me what I should think ?
The truth is that none of us knows for sure whether he is alive or not.
certainly I will say that I can not confirm this , but the testimony of those who went to his funeral and can confirm the location of his remains could prove the point one way or the other ,
do you not find it odd that people are saying they went to his funeral and there is no desire from officials to investigate such claims all these years after his claimed death ?
Certainly it is interesting that the recent tape mentions Wolfowitz, who has been out of the government since late spring of last year. To me that suggests it may be an older tape than those who believe its authenticity are supposing. One would think a U.S. government forgery wouldn't make the outdated reference to Wolfowitz, but I'm sure you would be willing to ascribe that to U.S. deviousness.
I sadly have grave doubts about everything the current US administration tells us yes , I wish I did not , all countries use propaganda and tell the occasional lie to achieve an aim but I genuinely believe this current Neocon agenda in the United states is a great danger to us all (including Americans)
to cover the multitude of reasons why would take the reading of almost all the posts on this blog and certainly could not be answered in a single comment .. But i do not believe the disregard of the Geneva convention , the use of torture and secret prisons the illegal invasion of a sovereign nation and the total disregard of the united nations to be minor crimes but major ones that puts the current US administration right up there with the worst of the worst...
If you want to reflexively distrust everything the U.S. government says, go for it. You will even be right sometimes. But why not try to be an informed and critical consumer of information. Don't believe all this stuff you read on conspiracy websites.
Now your putting yourself right there with the crimes you accuse me of , your assuming that my claims are incorrect and that I have no base to be believing them .
as stated If you supply credible evidence that can be assured of its non partisan detachment from Neocon Propaganda or nationalism then I would be happy to look at them , but your accusing me of believing in some kind of conspiracy theory whilst failing to show me a single example of why such a view would be wrong ?
I was actually very surprised to learn the extent of the Tora Bora complex, whose construction OBL oversaw for a decade or more. It's a bit of an injustice to call these "caves." I'm willing to say he could be dead. If he is alive, it's impressive that he's managed to surround himself with helpers crazy enough to be unmotivated by the $25 million bounty. You should add the fact that no one has turned him in to your list of arguments, by the way--hard to turn him in if he's dead. But while I'm giving rhetorical advice, I suggest that you can't just throw in every article you find that claims he's dead and call it good. One of them says he was blown up at Tora Bora, and the next says he died peacefully from some lung complications. Both stories can't be correct.
Of course not but my whole point behind the argument was to state that things are not as clear cut as you may believe them to be .
The extremist elements within the terrorists circles also have a program of propaganda and it would be foolish to spot one and be convinced by the other but considering so many of your fellow Americans died on that day does it not anger you that these issues are not being followed up . and that Mr bush doesn't really think about Bin laden very much ... ?
Hello. I'm an American, but not right wing. Maybe you think there is no other kind,
check through my site you will find more than half of my readers are American and also they are left of center in their views. Maybe I reacted that way as almost without question the only dissent I receive on this site are from right winged Americans and the left usually leave comments in agreement with the conclusions shown ....
in which case "right winged American" wasn't an attempt to differentiate among us.
come on that's shallow , your jumping from assumption to assumption whilst claiming to show concern for me jumping from assumption to assumption are your assumptions somehow better than mine ...
But anyway, since I am here and you are not,
what on earth do you think that would prove ? hey I am here and your not too so I guess we are even .
I can tell you with some authority that almost no one in this country questions his involvement
really so the thousands of web sites and comments that I come across on American servers are all figments of my imagination
or is is purely a matter of the fact that you have not seen them and hence they do not exist ?
and why on you seem to think the American view has any more importance than the British or Canadian or palestinian or any country you care to name is beyond me , you just come across as egotistical with such over inflated sense of the importance of your personal view .
Your view here is always welcome but please dont be so niave as to think your the first American to enter this tribal land , I get a hundreds of your fellow countrymen each day and there views ironically do not always match yours . maybe you should go out and meet some of them
you incorrectly perceived earlier that I was making stereotypical judgments of your nation and now your doing the same , how strange ...
(you may feel there is false consciousness, but I'm just telling you what the reality is).
you have no greater understanding of what reality is than myself , in fact unless you yourself committed the act on 9/11 your fumbling in the dark as much as the rest of us
being an American does not give you a greater access to truth as the many Americans who have come here in there thousands since i started the sight will testify.
There's not much question among educated people in other parts of the world, from all I can gather (again, they could all be dupes).
again your just jumping to conclusions , where have you asked ? ,
how many people have you asked ?
what was the question ? .
what percentages were white , black , Muslim , christian , Jew ? male , female , young old ,
supply data not assumptions for your no better than me and I at least can claim that this is my blog to express my opinion upon , where as you have arrived and questioned my view without having any evidence at all to justify your point and a long list of assumptions that I am supposed accept because your an American ? really ? ...
The idea that many people question whether "his involvement was somehow connected to a group such as the PNAC" is funny, because for better or worse only a tiny number of people in the U.S. or elsewhere has heard of that group. Do you mean to suggest that some affiliated entity of the U.S. government orchestrated 9/11?
I am saying that over 80 % of new yorkers when asked in a recent survey believe the some element of the US government had some kind of prior knowledge of the event and I am saying that I have not ruled out the possibility that some element within the realms of Power in the US may be connected directly or indirectly yes
I can say with some certainty that the events on 9/11 did not happen exactly as we were all told they did .
I can not say that X or Y committed the crime for I do not have access to all of the files and resources that I would require and neither do you . you see people like me are merely asking the questions and it is easy to ridicule but it is much harder to prove those questions false
take a look at where we have got , hundreds on pointless words in a thread not many will still be reading to achieve the conclusion that you don't have a clue what happened either , the key difference is that you accept the version told and that I do not
you have zero evidence to justify your assumption and I have none either . now considering the catastrophic consequences of that fateful day it would concern me that your not asking the very same questions that i do
why are you not asking your government to justify its view with evidence ?
Are you saying that these companies and the CIA were involved in orchestrating 9/11.
I am saying that companies like bechtel have gained immense amounts of money from the horrors involved and that they have by definition much to gain from such terrorist acts
I am not saying they are involved(how on earth would I know , or you for that matter) but I am saying if you look at every single major terrorist attack including London , Bali, Madrid , Iraq and even the attack on the USS Cole that Bechtel has somehow managed to gain enormous amounts of money from the tragedy of others
so in simple terms they have motive , that does not mean they did anything at all but in any investigation the first question you should ask is who has a motive to be connected to this
If you know as much as you claim to then you will be fully aware of Bechtels connections to the CIA and the history of both ..
Now again you should not assume from what I am saying that I am inferring anything more than ' look at this ' as many of your fellow Americans are also doing . They are also trying hard to get the investigation re-opened as well it should be
Since you don't think OBL was involved,
again I repeat I did not say that , I doubt that he was involved but there is a key difference between the words
it wouldn't seem that his closeness with Bechtel or the CIA would give the latter any insight into "what happened on 9/11."
that's what we calla non sequitur
T.he U.S. has obviously allied itself with some pretty unsavory characters over the years, I'll grant you that. Typically the alliance was against someone worse, at least as we saw it (Hitler, the USSR, Iran, etc.), and it typically didn't long outlast the worse threat. You may disagree
Its perspective , you seem to have an undercurrent of belief that I am Anti American , I am not, I am anti the worst most extreme right Neoconservative agenda to hit your country that could be imagined , I view this Neocon agenda as the greatest threat to world peace and stability since Hitlers rise to power in 1933 yes . but i am only talking about an assessment of a few hundred people in key positions
I am sure you are familiar with the words of Theodore Roosevelt
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
Sadly it seems these days those that question your government from inside and outside your country are viewed as being anti american , this i believe is the worst of your many assumptions about myself
You should read the Guardian story again. It's a report about a report and it's filled with indicia that the underlying report is suspect. The funeral thing seems shaky, since other people said he got vaporized at Tora Bora. I confess I don't know what became of his "vaste fortune" but it wouldn't surprise me if any under Saudi jurisdiciton had been taken or redistributed to avoid having it taken.
The guardian story is one of many infact I am shocked you have not complained about the papers left wing tendancies , Most people who would comment here would already have their own sources of information and a simple peice of research yourself that would take a shorter amount of time than your reply to me will show hundreds of such sources , if you want help looking just ask
I'm not. I'm a skeptical mainstream American and the kind of person you ought to be interested in convincing. Sorry about the "comical" comment. You are obviously committed and sincere. I think your reflexive distrust of the U.S. is your Achilles' heel. There's no reason to doubt that the 9/11 attacks were conceived and conducted by islamic terrorists. But my sense is that you do. My sense is that you would disbelieve something that was obviously true, if you could somehow trace it back to someone connected to the U.S. government.
Your may need to see someone about your senses they seem a little messed up , I can assure you that if you can show me that Osama is alive and well and did comit the act in question I would post it without hesitation , my concern is with the truth and not with some assesment of my asssement of an asssement , which is bizare to say the least
My purpose here is much greater than the events of 9/11 or convincing middle ground Americans of their view and I would respectfully ask that you make your assessment of what you see here based on more than a single post about a (what seems to me) highly convenient very bad audio tape ,
The other commenter has a link about the tape, from a site that talks elsewhere about JFK, MLK, JFK, Jr. assassination conspiracies, compares George Bush to Hitler (please), etc. I'm inclined to subscribe to something then-Vice-Presdient George H.W. Bush said years ago: "If it looks like a duck, and it walks like a duck, and it talks like a duck, AND IT SAYS IT'S A DUCK, then it's a duck.
well some could also use Mr Bushs comment about himself and the word fascist (note i said could)
So I'd say Al Qaeda orchestrated 9/11.
and three thousand words later we are still at the guessing stage , again if you take anything from this natural abuse of the worlds keyboards then please take this
we don't know , we should know , people are dead , more are dying and nobody is bothered about presenting the slightest evidence to prove the point ...
you should be able to come here and without a seconds doubt say
exhibit one ....
exhibit two ....
full unrestricted open enquiry where Mr bush etc testified ....
but you can't can you ?
London bombings all solved
Madrid ... solved
Bali ... solved
9/11 nobody has a clue but a lot of people are getting bombed shit less for the pleasure
I've already said we don't know whether OBL is alive or not. I think the wisest course is to assume he is absent credible PROOF to the contrary. I happen to think he is/was something of a figurehead and Zawahiri is the the real brains of the operation (as Al Q only came into its current form after merging with Zawahiri's Egyptian Islamic Jihad).
I agree that he is only a figure head and have said so often . the debate into what is firing the current rise in extreme terrorism is immense and I would be happy for you to dive into such a debate on the next such posting on that subject
but something interesting comes from your words , it seems clear to me that you doubt the accuracy of this tape too , your not saying as much but you infer that credible proof has not been supplied and we have just had a tape as you know ...
Yes, you do. I think we know the basic facts.
I doubt very much that you do from what I have read so far
I guess you're going to have to fill me (and most everyone else in the mainstream world) in on this one.
again your mainstream world is not mine , you probably view extremist as al jazeera and I would say the criminal is fox news so please don't assume so much your intelligence is clouded by your arrogance
Again if you doubt me (and I have already shown a link that proves 4 people on the FBI list are alive and well which you have not questioned) then it is a simple matter to look at the names of the hijackers and research a little into what there current status is . A simple google search will bring up enough to start with and you can decide if actual interviews with the people who the FBI still claim were on those planes is sufficient evidence for your satisfaction ...
If we're doing guilt by association, someone might think all this defending of OBL says something about you. If you're saying the CIA or some other U.S. instrumentality, or the Mossad, was behind 9/11, that is just so far out there that I honestly don't think it's worth having a dialogue about. Only because of the Achilles' heel in how you reason--which I mentioned above--are you able to think such things.
so your a psychology expert now I see , well alas your not very good at it ... in fact you have taken me on a considerably longer 'therefore' journey than the very post you criticize ,
I am not saying anybody DID or WAS connected and as before I am still asking you to justify your claim
let us sum up
I say Osama is probably (almost certainly) dead
you say he could be dead
I say I have yet to see any evidence that proves Osama committed the crime so I doubt it (note i said doubt)
you say you believe your government but you bring no evidence to prove he committed the act
your guessing ! , I am Guessing ! your applying your logic ! I am applying mine ! your questioning my logic ! I am questioning yours !
shall i go on or are we bored yet ....
So far we have had a mildly amusing but completely pointless debate and your number one point seems to be that your right because your American, and I am wrong .... well because I am
thanks
I am happy to debate with you but the tedium of the debating a subject where there are no clear facts for you to present will become a never ending pursuit of opinion
3000 of your fellow countrymen died and your happy to go forward without any evidence that we an all see as being clear
I think that your Achilles heal , is being far to trusting of the motives of your government ask yourself what would happen to your country if an even worse attack was to take place ..
how far are you willing to let them go before you insist they prove there case to you ?
btw if anyone else had time to read all that ... please find a hobby or something you have far to much free time on your hands
and I wont speak for Anonymous but my last comment was considerably shorter than I would have wished :-)
I blogged about the Osama tape a few days ago... in case you're interested in my opinion:
http://www.weidenfeldfamily.com/blogs/rob/2006/01/bin-laden-reappears-to-help-his-buddy.html
You might find some of my other entries interesting as well. Hope you check it out!
I think if you take one thing from all this, it should be that--despite the websites you read, despite what your self-selected group of visitors suggests, and poll or no poll--there is very little question among people in the U.S. about who was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. It seems to me you will be better off for knowing this, even though I'm sure it comes as bad news from your perspective, and tells you nothing but that Neocon propaganda has been dreadfully effective. Naturally, I don't expect you to just believe me on this, but you should because I'm telling you the truth and it seems I'm in a far better position to judge this particular truth than you are.
You seem pretty uncritical about where your information comes from. I'm not a fan of FOX News by any stretch, but mainstream U.S. news organizations have standards and controls, and competitors ready to refute their stories, that Al Jazeera and others do not. Notice that I'm not saying that Al Jazeera does not present a viewpoint that has millions of sympathizers around the world. I'm not interested in playing dueling web citations as it's very easy to find support for whatever you like on the web. I get most of my news from the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Economist, wire services and other reputable outlets whose basic reliability and standards have been proven over decades.
I'm well aware that many in the world don't embrace the U.S. and would like to see the U.S. step back into a global role no greater than that of any other country. To the extent this would require the U.S. to refrain from actions its leaders--of any party--deem essential to protect the country and its vital interests, that's not going to happen. No state would behave that way, and the U.S. just happens to be the state with the most resources for protecting its interests. You may not like that, but that's the way things are and it's not likely to change anytime soon.
thanks for your comments Anonymous.
I have a natural distaste for those who claim to speak 'the truth' and again you fail to tell me why the Opinion of Americans should have more credence than any other point of view .
btw I have no way to self 'select' my visitors. this is a web site people come here if they choose too just as you did.
for your Information My dear wife spent 17 years in your beloved country and hence I have spent much time there myself . I have friends right across the US and meet with your fellow countrymen often.
With respect your living inside a self created myth whit your opinion ... "U.S. news organizations have standards and controls,"
is that why your country is ranked 44th in the world for freedom of press , yes 44th , that's awful isn't for the land of the free ! here considering that your country was inside the top 20 before your current president speaks for itself .
or is the world wide press index part of your conceptual conspiracy your convinced I believe in . Please your coming across as simply arrogant and your lack of factual understanding of the accuracy of your own press shows that such arrogance is misplaced.
I am quite sure that you would find an excuse to dismiss any point of view that does not fit with your vision of the world and again you have supplied not a single fact to prove your initial point that you somehow how have access to some proof that Bin Laden did without doubt com it the horrible act on 9/11 and you still have supplied none ....
so what on earth are you trying to prove ?
take another look at my article please , the title 'osama tape or osama fake' 'the first sentence Personally I have quite a number of doubts about the latest Bin Laden tape
now it is obvious that this is my opinion (note the word doubts) I did not claim that this is the work of god and should be believed accordingly I said I had some doubts and hence here a some things to ponder
you doubt them , that's your right , but please don't expect me to place any more credence to your opinion than my own ,
If you want to persist in coming back each time then bring facts , bring evidence , bring sources
I really place your dissent on this site as one of the least well constructed I have had for you believe I should just accept your view without anything at all to back it up apart from the fact that you tell me its true ...
sorry If you want to prevent the complete waste of our time , drop the assumptions they make you look foolish , drop the attitude , arrogance is not a pleasant thing to read, and bring facts , for otherwise you should just open your own site to write hundreds of words that add up to the conclusion that you don't have any more knowledge than the rest of us
From the detail of the rankings you cite: "The United States (44th) fell more than 20 places, mainly because of the imprisonment of New York Times reporter Judith Miller and legal moves undermining the privacy of journalistic sources."
Miller was treated as any witness in a criminal matter--under well-establshed Supreme Court precedent, there is no privilege for reporters to avoid testifying to criminal conduct they may have witnessed. You are writing from a country with no written constitution and no bill of rights whose robust Official Secrets Act and libel laws both tend to stifle the press, and yet the UK ranks higher in the survey than the U.S. To me this is remarkable. Naturally, the basis for the U.S.'s low ranking only tends to bolster the credibiltiy of the NYT, whose reporter was the one jailed.
I was referring to your visitor traffic as self-selecting. You are surely getting a skewed picture of popular opinion in the U.S., just as I would get a skewed picture of U.K. popular opinion if I put up a very Blair-sympathetic site. I would probably conclude that everyone over there loved the guy. Would I be right?
If you want to understand what the U.S. does, I think you should want to understand the true state of popular opinion here. There is a great deal of disagreement on many things, but culpability for the 9/11 attacks is not one of them. I'm not intersted in convincing you, per se, because I think you should want to have a clear-eyed view of what people believe over here. I'm just throwing it out there for you, and if you'd rather continue to believe something else, that's fine with me. Yes, it's a small minority of the world's population, but it's one that it would do well for you to understand as the author of a website generally critical of U.S. policy.
If you don't want me to think you are susceptible to conspiracy theories, don't link to sites that propound them. It's really not that hard to figure out which are the conspiracy sites, and it has nothing to do with being an arrogant American. Weed them out and you'll do wonders for your credibility. However, my sense is that, behind your seeker's facade of "I have quite a number of doubts," you want to believe a lot of that stuff--neocons planning 9/11 as their own Reichstag fire, remote-controlled planes, etc. I know, I know, ask the people who were at the funeral that no one in the mainstream U.S. media is interested in talking to because they are all organs of the dominant power structure. Interesting that the ideologically neutral outlet that runs headlines like this also seems to think OBL is alive and well.
Sorry, duck, I was quoting George H.W. Bush and he departed from a customary formulation, but to make a point. I should have made that more clear. He was responding to someone's claim that the Sandinistas were not communists. His point was that in addition to the other indicia that they were, they actually had said they were communists. If I wanted to express a usual formulation, I would not have gone to the trouble of acribing it to George H.W. Bush.
And actually, there are all kinds of different variations on the basic saying.
44th) fell more than 20 places, mainly because of the imprisonment of New York Times reporter Judith Miller and legal moves undermining the privacy of journalistic sources."
I know the reasons stated why and you not yourself the word 'mainly' the supresson of the NYT in printing the wiretap stories will push you even lower
You are writing from a country with no written constitution and no bill of rights whose robust Official Secrets Act and libel laws both tend to stifle the press, and yet the UK ranks higher in the survey than the U.S. To me this is remarkable.
now thats hillarious thank you :-)
It seems your writing from a country that ignores its own constitution and bill of rights ,
I can assure you that we don't torture people
we do comply with the Geneva convention
we don't spy on our citizens without a court order
we don't use land mines
We did not kick and scream about ratifying the treaty of the child to give rights to children
our record for the 'accidental' deaths of civilians in war makes you look like attila the Hun ,
we abolished the barbaric death penalty unlike you and other progressive countries such Iran and Saudi Arabia
we don't harbour terrorists whilst telling the world not too
our people are HIGHLY tolerant of world religions and cultures
Our press actually question our government and not blindly follow them into war
we don't ask our children to repeat a pledge each morning to in bed artificial patriotism into there brains
a news network as biased as fox would be taken off the air in this country
companies are capped to prevent them spending billions supporting people to gain power here
questioning authority is not considered unpatriotic here but vital to freedom and democracy . The shameful disgusting way that people like cindy sheehan are treated in your country is barbaric and would never happen on such a scale here
we have not used our veto ten times more than any other country to stifle world opinion and action
we have signed the Kyoto treaty
we don't kidnap ,
we wouldn't dare conceive of a patriot act
and we allow women the freedom of choice on whether they should have a baby or not
and most important of all is that we keep religion and politics separate . to listen to George bush and his messages from 'god' is no less scary than listening to the president of Iran I assure you
to allow faith and politics to mix is just about the most damaging thing you can do to a free country , the overwhelming Islamophobia and Xenophobia that a large percentage of your people possess (as noted by other americans here often) is in no short meassure down to the power and influence of the 'christian' right in your country
dont missunderstand me It is for each to choose his faith or not but politics and relgion working in tandom has created more deaths than enything else , including the illigal invasion of soveriegn Iraq
I was referring to your visitor traffic as self-selecting. You are surely getting a skewed picture of popular opinion in the U.S., just as I would get a skewed picture of U.K. popular opinion if I put up a very Blair-sympathetic site. I would probably conclude that everyone over there loved the guy. Would I be right?
You would ne Niave , I spend a great deal of my time at a wide varity of sites , check my links , one left , one right , 2 american , 2 not , I have no idea why you think your some kind of revelation to me , I meet people like you all the time and very sadly people much much much worse
the most common view I here from americans is sadly comments like "lets nuke Iran" and it is usually combined with incredible ingorance as to who , why , and what is happening in the 96 % of the planet that is not them
this kind of barbaric thinking is not the type of american I wish to converse with , who would converse with those that wished for the genocide of others , some people are far far far too ignorant and probably are dumb enough to think that george bush has in any way shape size or form made them safer !
you can't argue with such Ignorance , to be fair other countries can do the same , the tendacy in the middle east to JUST blame israel and the US for all their problems is no better
If you want to understand what the U.S. does ....
I have a wide range of opinion and experience and qualifications and wisdom to draw apon to make my conclusuions I have no idea why you would think there is anything at all in what you say that has not been included already within my understanding , I agree with some , I dont with others , it is called having my own mind . you made a choice to come here and read my article now you want me to abandon my thoughts and inherite yours on the bases of your superior understanding based on the fact that you say so
you know nothing about me , you don't know where I have been or whom i converse with or whether i spent the last 50 years studying your town , its just assumption , assumption ,assumption
let me give you some advice , your process for coming to logical conclusions is flawed , it continues time and time again to give you the wrong answer but somehow you fail to notice.
that it would do well for you to understand as the author of a website generally critical of U.S. policy
please , there are web sites out there that are advocating attacking countries and bombing people , the continued use of torture and why its ok to spy on your own people without warrant , and your here , saying this ! give me a break
go find a site that tells the world to kill black people or Muslims or gays or to bomb France , or to remove civil liberties in your own country or remove liberties and freedoms from others and lay off this mild stuff . the people who come here in general care about the world , they want to stop the senseless murder of civilians , they wish to put balance into the extreme propaganda that they see on their TVs and their often angry but they are good people ,
I have worked In Iraq and the Middle east , I have seen what a US or UK missile can do to a family and living in London I have also seen what the evil of terrorism can do many many many times over .
There is nothing your insular view is going to tell me , I am not some fool who sits at home looking at web sites and posting stuff from the TV and the implication is insulting , more so considering the good you could be doing with your nimble fingers against some genuine threat to freedom democracy and your own people
If you don't want me to think you are susceptible to conspiracy theories,
now this may shock you .... I don't care what you think , take what you want , leave what you don't , read it , laugh at it , scream at it , come every day , never come again that is your choice . I didn't write it for you , I wrote it for myself and if others gain from it then great if they don't then fine
you really over inflate your own importance in all this don't you
you Al-Jazeera comment tells me that you have no idea how and they were formed , who backed them , how they are viewed in the middle east (have you even been there ? )
H
Finally as you wll noted (I am sure you have taken a look around whilst checking for my replies)
I am not Anonymous my email is in my profile and all of what you are saying is based on your personal assesment of me and what I post
so for goodness sake just email me
people coming here wanting to quickly read the threads will have to wade through nine miles of you you and you and thats not repectfull to others ...
I am happy to debate with you if you so wish but I have already recieved emails telling me that people dont have time to read all this and lets be fair there is nothing at all to be gained by reading a single world of it
if you want to probe 'me' by all means do so but you not coming here awash with facts just dripping with opinion and I am sure your aware that each of us on this planet has one of those
If you want to take anything up with me , you (as anyone) can click my profile and email me direct
assuming for a second that your intention really was to convince 'me' of something emailing me of course would have been the first thing you did
44th) fell more than 20 places, mainly because of the imprisonment of New York Times reporter Judith Miller and legal moves undermining the privacy of journalistic sources."
I know the reasons stated why and you not yourself the word 'mainly' the supresson of the NYT in printing the wiretap stories will push you even lower
You are writing from a country with no written constitution and no bill of rights whose robust Official Secrets Act and libel laws both tend to stifle the press, and yet the UK ranks higher in the survey than the U.S. To me this is remarkable.
now thats hillarious thank you :-)
It seems your writing from a country that ignores its own constitution and bill of rights ,
I can assure you that we don't torture people
we do comply with the Geneva convention
we don't spy on our citizens without a court order
we don't use land mines
We did not kick and scream about ratifying the treaty of the child to give rights to children
our record for the 'accidental' deaths of civilians in war makes you look like attila the Hun ,
we abolished the barbaric death penalty unlike you and other progressive countries such Iran and Saudi Arabia
we don't harbour terrorists whilst telling the world not too
our people are HIGHLY tolerant of world religions and cultures
Our press actually question our government and not blindly follow them into war
we don't ask our children to repeat a pledge each morning to in bed artificial patriotism into there brains
a news network as biased as fox would be taken off the air in this country
companies are capped to prevent them spending billions supporting people to gain power here
questioning authority is not considered unpatriotic here but vital to freedom and democracy . The shameful disgusting way that people like cindy sheehan are treated in your country is barbaric and would never happen on such a scale here
we have not used our veto ten times more than any other country to stifle world opinion and action
we have signed the Kyoto treaty
we don't kidnap ,
we wouldn't dare conceive of a patriot act
and we allow women the freedom of choice on whether they should have a baby or not
and most important of all is that we keep religion and politics separate . to listen to George bush and his messages from 'god' is no less scary than listening to the president of Iran I assure you
to allow faith and politics to mix is just about the most damaging thing you can do to a free country , the overwhelming Islamophobia and Xenophobia that a large percentage of your people possess (as noted by other americans here often) is in no short meassure down to the power and influence of the 'christian' right in your country
Nice list, but we were talking about freedom of the press. Weren't we? The things I mentioned had some bearing on that. If we want a catalogue of Britain's various bad acts and practices over the years, neither of us would even know where to start, I should think. After all, you have spent time in the Middle East. One interesting thing, to me, is that Britain has a state religion and we do not. Maybe it's not intrusive over there, but your monarch is the head of your national church. That couldn't happen here. By the way, I think Islamic and Christian fundamentalists are equally crazy.
dont missunderstand me It is for each to choose his faith or not but politics and relgion working in tandom has created more deaths than enything else , including the illigal invasion of soveriegn Iraq
I was referring to your visitor traffic as self-selecting. You are surely getting a skewed picture of popular opinion in the U.S., just as I would get a skewed picture of U.K. popular opinion if I put up a very Blair-sympathetic site. I would probably conclude that everyone over there loved the guy. Would I be right?
You would ne Niave , I spend a great deal of my time at a wide varity of sites , check my links , one left , one right , 2 american , 2 not , I have no idea why you think your some kind of revelation to me , I meet people like you all the time and very sadly people much much much worse
No, I was mentioning this because I thought you were saying you knew U.S. popular opinion because of what all your hundreds of U.S. visitors were saying.
the most common view I here from americans is sadly comments like "lets nuke Iran" and it is usually combined with incredible ingorance as to who , why , and what is happening in the 96 % of the planet that is not them
It would be a bad thing for Iran to have nuclear weapons. The U.S. has a big interst in seeing that that doesn't happen. It will be interesting to see how far Iran wants to push it. Israel may not let them push it as far as the U.N. or even the U.S. would.
this kind of barbaric thinking is not the type of american I wish to converse with , who would converse with those that wished for the genocide of others , some people are far far far too ignorant and probably are dumb enough to think that george bush has in any way shape size or form made them safer !
Fair enough on the first part. I think that we've killed a lot of people who it will be hard for Al Qaeda to replace easily, and that probably has made us safer. Driving them out of Afghanistan has probaby made us safer.
you can't argue with such Ignorance , to be fair other countries can do the same , the tendacy in the middle east to JUST blame israel and the US for all their problems is no better
If you want to understand what the U.S. does ....
I have a wide range of opinion and experience and qualifications and wisdom to draw apon to make my conclusuions I have no idea why you would think there is anything at all in what you say that has not been included already within my understanding , I agree with some , I dont with others , it is called having my own mind . you made a choice to come here and read my article now you want me to abandon my thoughts and inherite yours on the bases of your superior understanding based on the fact that you say so
you know nothing about me , you don't know where I have been or whom i converse with or whether i spent the last 50 years studying your town , its just assumption , assumption ,assumption
let me give you some advice , your process for coming to logical conclusions is flawed , it continues time and time again to give you the wrong answer but somehow you fail to notice.
It seems, then, that we can't learn much from each other.
that it would do well for you to understand as the author of a website generally critical of U.S. policy
please , there are web sites out there that are advocating attacking countries and bombing people , the continued use of torture and why its ok to spy on your own people without warrant , and your here , saying this ! give me a break
There is no shortage of interesting opinions on the web, that's for sure. Blame the "next blog" button for not taking me somewhere different.
go find a site that tells the world to kill black people or Muslims or gays or to bomb France , or to remove civil liberties in your own country or remove liberties and freedoms from others and lay off this mild stuff . The authors of those sites are beyond help. the people who come here in general care about the world , they want to stop the senseless murder of civilians , they wish to put balance into the extreme propaganda that they see on their TVs and their often angry but they are good people ,
I have worked In Iraq and the Middle east , I have seen what a US or UK missile can do to a family and living in London I have also seen what the evil of terrorism can do many many many times over .
There is nothing your insular view is going to tell me , I am not some fool who sits at home looking at web sites and posting stuff from the TV and the implication is insulting , more so considering the good you could be doing with your nimble fingers against some genuine threat to freedom democracy and your own people
Sorry.
If you don't want me to think you are susceptible to conspiracy theories,
now this may shock you .... I don't care what you think , take what you want , leave what you don't , read it , laugh at it , scream at it , come every day , never come again that is your choice . I didn't write it for you , I wrote it for myself and if others gain from it then great if they don't then fine
Suit yourself, I guess. People will take you more seriously if you avoid conspiracy sites. But it's entirely up to you.
you really over inflate your own importance in all this don't you
Apparently
you Al-Jazeera comment tells me that you have no idea how and they were formed , who backed them , how they are viewed in the middle east (have you even been there ? ) They were funded by the Emir of Qatar, I believe. I have a pretty good idea that they are accorded a lot of credibility in the Middle East. I have not been there. I don't think the average person there or here is exceptionally good at critical thinking.
Nice list, but we were talking about freedom of the press. Weren't we? The things I mentioned had some bearing on that. If we want a catalogue of Britain's various bad acts and practices over the years, neither of us would even know where to start, I should think. After all, you have spent time in the Middle East. One interesting thing, to me, is that Britain has a state religion and we do not. Maybe it's not intrusive over there, but your monarch is the head of your national church. That couldn't happen here. By the way, I think Islamic and Christian fundamentalists are equally crazy
Yes we were talking about the press but you said from a country that does not have a constitution ( of course your excluding the hundreds of laws including the European convention human rights etc) and trying to connect that to your assumption that your press was somehow more free
call it a complete vague connection in return for you complete vague connection IE we can both supply non sequiturs and I often return them when sent to me :-)
on the acts of my country I agree , all countries act barbaric during times of imperialism and we were worst than most ( read all )
as for the Monarch :-) who ? , they are there to take in the money from tourists
what on earth do you think a state religion is ? I have no religion , there is complete freedom of faith in every way and it is purely symbolic , my monarch is also the head of the prevention of cruelty to dolphins (or whatever it may be ) that means nothing too any of us
the monarch is always at the front of the church, mosque or whatever and treats all faiths equally , the UK is known for its history and ceremony and along as you guys keep flying over we will keep supplying them ... I always find it hilarious that the the queen etc gets more coverage on your TV then it does mine
No, I was mentioning this because I thought you were saying you knew U.S. popular opinion because of what all your hundreds of U.S. visitors were saying.
now that would be silly , there are hundreds of reasons why I hold the views I do , the mistake is to assume you can figure out how i came to think as I do based on a small article and your comments there after ..
It would be a bad thing for Iran to have nuclear weapons. The U.S. has a big interest in seeing that that doesn't happen. It will be interesting to see how far Iran wants to push it. Israel may not let them push it as far as the U.N. or even the U.S. would.
with respect I will skip this one or we will be here for weeks if you want my view there are dozens of posts on the subject here
It seems, then, that we can't learn much from each other.
it seemed to me that was obvious from the start , I did actually write the article you know .
I admit I could have spent much longer compiling the sources (there are plenty of better ones) but to let you in on something the article is actually half the size it was when i wrote it at least 20 links were removed and extra opinions taken out due to the knowledge that many people just will not bother to read a piece with so many links in it for they don't have the time .
but sadly you came in assuming that my whole persona existed within a single article and hence believed there was something I had missed , this was wrong
... But it's entirely up to you
why thank you
now please . for anyone that has had the time to read all of this now or in the future , you have more than had the opportunity to get across what it is that you think , I have not suppressed a single word and done my best to respond to each and every point you have made
this has become a conversation not an open thread that people feel free to add their 2 cents too and it should be the other way round. try doing the same on a site that accepts the full version you are told and 9 times out of 10 you would be deleted
your welcome to post on any topic here you wish (as is anybody who has basic manners and courtesy) but can we agree that you have had you moment to let off steam and it is time to move on at least from this thread ?
Please note in the comment above your last I said feel free to email me if you want to continue what is a one on one debate on this subject , you may find me more willing to address you particular thoughts and ideas if you did so that way
I have thousands of sources for data and I don't doubt you have your own resources too and the debate on the current status of OBL has changed to a debate about an article that i did not write , to the value of American opinion , to the constitution and onwards and upwards
basically you seem to just want to debate and before I know it we will be arguing the existence of extraterrestrials in the context of their contribution to still life art forms
I like debating but this site is for everyone who wants to read it and many people have gathered the wisdom to email me if they feel their point may exceed 75 paragraphs .....
thank you for your comments , as I say there is little we will learn from each other on this subject but maybe on other subjects who knows ...
H
I think I was typing when you posted your penultimate comment about email. I might drop you a line sometime and you may do the same at the address you have for me.
I think if I had had the restraint to leave the gratuitous last line off of my first post, we might not have found ourselves playing the game of line-by-line responses (a style I adopted from you and then ran with--but that I probably goaded you into in the first place). It wasn't without its charms, though :)
Cheers.
"And do as adversaries do in law -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends."
- Shakespeare, The Taming of the Shrew
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